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TWPT: How long have the two of you known each other and what
was the impetus to write together?
LN: We've known each other for....what is it, 4 years now? It
seems like longer! We met in the aftermath of a Long Beach WomanSpirit Samhain
ritual. Also I had put out a flyer for a
Goddess 2000 event I'd planned in our home town. Dee
rung me up and we were soon cohorts in crime.
Not so coincidentally, I had asked during the ritual for some new and
interesting friends to manifest in my life. The impetus for writing this book
for me was having a writer for a friend who made me do it! LOL! A year after
our initial meeting, Denise and I were sitting together sipping martinis at a
Long Beach Vampire/Goth event....again close to Samhain. And I innocently
suggested how cool it would be to have a book about the archetypes we were
into, mostly the 'darker' sort. Dee took me at
my martini influenced words and "The Dark Archetype" was conceived.
DD: Ask Lori and she’ll say it’s all my fault. I say it’s all
HER fault for putting out that flyer announcing a Goddess 2000 event in Redondo Beach. I was
astonished; an event that close to home? Anyway, I participated in her
sand-goddess building ritual and she was Art Director of our first
collaboration, which was the poetry and art anthology, Isis Rising: The Goddess
in the Year 2000 which we edited together for the Temple of Isis Los Angeles.
We later founded, along with Stephania Ebony, the Iseum of Isis Paedusis, an
Isian study group headquartered here in the South Bay.
And those were green apple martinis, by the way!
TWPT:
Your new book is called The Dark Archetype, why is it
that you decided to write about the darker side of divinity?
LN: To tell you the truth I wanted to read a book like ours
and there aren't a lot out there specific to the dark gods and goddesses that
are geared toward the modern-day pagan. We both realized that there was a void
that needed to be filled.
DD: I say find a niche and fill it. And I was tired of the
idea that “dark” always meant “bad” and I was also tired of revisionist history
that some pagans were doing trying to “lighten up” the truth about their
ancestors and their ancestors’ gods.
TWPT: For those who may not be familiar with the term could you
tell us what “archetype” means to you and how it relates to the subject matter
of this book?
LN: Well, we don't
use the term in the formal Jungian sense, though it does apply. Simply, I
believe that the deities and mythological figures we deal with in the book are
near universal manifestations of primal energies and experiences expressed in
religion, folklore, myth, and the arts. These manifestations appear to be built
into the human psyche, as they continue to appear again and again to this day.
DD: Yeah, what she said! I think we did try to explain the
reason for the existence of dark deities and mythological beings in world
mythology and that took us into Jung’s idea of the archetype. We found
ourselves swimming around in the sea of the collective unconscious whether we
wanted to or not! It was actually quite interesting to see what manifested in
our own psyches while the book was being written…but then you have to read the
book to find out what happened there!
TWPT: What are your thoughts on why most people don’t like to
explore or even think about the darker sides of ourselves or our deities?
LN: That's an easy one: because it's unfamiliar and, via the
force of enculturation, taboo. What is strange and hidden is often perceived as
evil and bad. Our society doesn't have acceptable outlets for the darker side
of life. Most things that appear to be uncivilized, irrational, messy, painful,
violent and overly emotional are viewed as suspect. I talk about that in
"The Grim Reaper Chapter." How we sweep death under the rug and then
when it confronts us, we don't know how to deal with it. I also think some
people feel that they cannot follow The Wiccan Rede or be ethical if they
"go over to The Dark Side.".
DD: Let’s face it; the New Age has had a tremendous impact on
Pagan/Wiccan beliefs and practices. When I was starting out in the Craft as a
mere child, back in the days of people like Paul Huson and Louise Huebner—who,
btw, was named “the Official Witch of Los Angeles” by then-mayor Sam Yorty—it
was all about being spooky-cool. But that was before the hippies got off drugs
and turned into Jesus Freaks and made us go back into the broom closet. When we
came out, someone—probably Shirley Maclaine, whom I bear a certain resemblence
to, oddly enough—had dubbed this the New Age and it was all about white light
and don’t you dare wear black! Also, we pagans have tried to hard to go
“mainstream” as a religion that we spend a lot of time telling people we’re not
dark or evil, and in the process sometimes forget that pagans are supposed to
take the good with the bad, the dark with the light. It’s about balance. To go
wholly one way or another is to court misfortune through imbalance. Even the
New Agers are realizing that: read the book The Dark Side of the Light Chasers
for a New Age argument similar to ours.
TWPT: What are some of the main points that you are trying to
communicate to those who buy your book about the darker side of themselves and
of their deities?
LN: Simply, that we all need to lighten up a little, and to
accept that we find these archetypes intriguing, even titillating, and that
that is perfectly okay! Trust me folks, you will not burn in the Summerland if
you study or work with the darker archetypes. I sincerely hope that this book
will whet reader’s appetites for learning more about these forces and will open
up their minds and hearts to new deities and magickal experiences.
TWPT: Tell me about how the book is arranged and how your
readers can make use of it to enrich their spiritual paths?
DD: The book has introductory chapters that talk about basic
precautions and procedures for embarking on the book’s journey. It really isn’t
for beginners, but since we know some are going to read it, we’ve included such
things as how to set up sacred space and shield yourself while doing the
workings. The next section, Femmes Fatales: the Dark Goddesses, is all about
the female archetypes we discuss, including Kali, Medusa, Hel, Hekate, and
Lilith. The next section is called Bad Boys, Bad Boys, Whatcha Gonna Do? The
Dark Gods, and discusses such male archetypes as Loki, Lucifer, Anubis, and the
Grim Reaper. Finally, there is a section on rituals, spells, talismans, and
correspondences that gives detailed instructions for specific rituals, spells,
etc. for working with the archetypes discussed in the book.
The reader can work with the book in one of two ways: first
of all, I’d suggest reading the introductory chapters to see the purpose of the
book, and then read the archetype chapters to learn the history and practice
surrounding these gods, goddesses, orishas, etc. This will teach some things
you may not have known about them—such as the fact that Hekate was NOT
originally the witch’s crone goddess! You may also learn about deities you
didn’t know existed, such as Volos,
the Slavic werewolf god. Then, if these deities appeal to you, you can try the
rites at the end of the book or take our other suggestions for working with the
archetypes.
TWPT: Was there a particular point in time when the dark side began
to recede from view while the focus of spiritual paths shifted to the lighter
side of their deities?
DD: As far as our modern society is concerned, I answered
this under Question #4. As for the ancients, well, I think when the
monotheistic religions took precedence they obviously wanted their followers to
look to the “good” god and not the “bad.” They created dualism; not paganism.
Paganism was always about the grey areas, always mixing dark with light. It
helps to explain things such as sickness, death, natural disasters, etc., if
you have both dark and light gods in your worldview. I’m a fan of such
modern-day sects as the Yezidis, a mostly Kurdish group of Muslims who venerate
Shaitan rather than Allah because they believe that a good god is all-good and
all-loving and therefore doesn’t need us to grovel for him, while a devil
figure is jealous, capricious, and dangerous and therefore needs placating. As
a reward for their supreme love of Allah the Yezidis are called Satanists by
most other Muslims. And so it goes.
As for my own practice, I call on the dark deities in a
limited way; usually I am asking for compassion from someone like Kwan Yin or Isis, or inspiration from Thoth or Sarisvati! Though I do
admit to having a world-class crush on Shiva…
LN: Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm understanding your question. Do
you mean this on a personal level, in my own spiritual journey? If so, for me
each deity was a different case. I tried to balance both dark and light
aspects, but I'm afraid I suffer from what I call "the irreverent
reverence syndrome." Once I explore a deity and start to work with them, I
get terribly chummy with them, even casual--though not disrespectful. Every
time I do Denise’s amazing Set meditation (in our book), Set does something to
simultaneously crack me up and comfort me. He may be a bad guy in myth, but
he's a devilish charmer as well. Several of our chapters talk about how the
dark archetypes aren't really dark at all, just demonized. One deity I thought
was going to be quite dark, Coatlicue, turned out to be quite the reverse. Yet,
I felt it important to include her in the book. She wanted to be included.
Wink. Still, I know that these primal forces are never fluffy. Anubis may
appear to my inner eye as a black hound with tail a wag, but he's still the
embalming priest and psychopomp and you bet I respect his
"Authoritah!" as Cartman would say on South Park. Now that I re-read
your question....I think I may have just answered questions 8 and 10 instead!
Oops.
TWPT: What kinds of differences are there in working with the
dark side in rituals than the light side?
LN: We don't view things as so black and white. I believe
that all deities have myriad sides: dark, light and every shade in between. I
view power in pretty much the same way. It’s intent, what you do with it that
is important. Certainly, the energy of so-called darker deities may feel
different to work with, more intense or wild or merely different. As Denise
points out in the book’s intro, when you are dealing with a more cthonic force
it can hit you right around the lower chakras, if you take my meaning. Then
again that could be just us! Grin.
As far as set up and procedure is concerned, it’s been my
experience that different forces/entities like to be approached in specific
ways. But in a general sense healthy respect is a given. As I always say:
Groveling is good! LOL The Dark Goddesses don't mind a good forehead to the
floor bow. Often a more formal approach is required when working with these archetypes.
Then again sometimes you can just let it all hang out and do what feels
appropriate. With trickster deities I tend to go with who or what inspires me,
rather than adhere to ceremony. This is my preference when working with
Dionysos. Although, there are orthodox rituals and procedures for his worship
that can be gleaned from ancient Greek practice, I am comfortable being more
liberal around Liber Pater. Some things are just a given, however, like
shielding and grounding and if you are working with a deity that has a very
orthodox tradition of worship, like the Hindu gods or the orishas then it’s
best to approach them in more traditional, time-honored ways.
TWPT: Most of us remember the old Star Trek episode where
Kirk’s dark side is split away from his light side thereby weakening him as a
complete person, do you think that not working with or acknowledging the darker
side in our spiritual nature weakens us as well?
LN: It all comes right back to Star Trek, doesn't it! Yes, I
agree with that whole-heartedly. If you ignore a part of yourself you are only
asking for trouble. Nothing can be
repressed or ignored forever. And why should it, when it's who we are. Besides,
it's just not healthy for your psyche.
DD: Hey, who mentioned Star Trek? Read the Tezcatlipoca
scrying ritual, which is called “Mirror, Mirror” and discusses the classic Trek
episode of the same name. But seriously, I think it can be downright dangerous
to NOT explore the dark side; consider the way our society sweeps death under
the rug. We are not prepared for it by our society or most of our current
religious traditions, and therefore people in our country suffer terribly when
a loved one dies because they have fewer coping mechanisms.
TWPT: For those who are gung ho about beginning to work with
the darker sides of divinity do you have any words of caution about dealing
with those energies without becoming unbalanced in the opposite direction?
LN: “All in Moderation” or so the Greeks thought and that
means excess as well! Sure, it's cool to explore the "Dark Side", but
like anything. If that's all you take in or express, you are out of balance
with the universe, this is just as bad as focusing only on White Light and
Rainbow Bodies! Besides a steady diet of
anything is not only unhealthy, but BORING! Why limit yourself to just one
flavor? This is part of why we wrote this book: to encourage people to have a
more balanced view and to cultivate new tastes.
As for words of
caution, I have a few, but they’re not about imbalance. Because to tell you the
truth, the deities will note your imbalance and will make adjustments
accordingly. Consider yourself warned. My admonition is to incorporate respect
and love into everything that you do: this includes the archetypes, yourself
and other people.
TWPT: For those who have never really worked with the darker
side of deity or explored the darker side of their own personalities, what
kinds of suggestions do you have for the initial steps that a person should
take upon this path of discovery?
LN: Never move faster than the slowest part of you feels
comfortable going. Baby steps are quite all right. In fact, I think it’s best
to slowly incorporate anything new into your life. If you are leery, use our
book as an introduction to these entities. Read it and see who and what appeals
to you before you run out and buy all those black candles! If you become
enthralled with a particular archetype, focus on that one. feel free to
research them more deeply. You may wish to set up an introduction. That is, in
sacred and protected space, light a candle or burn some incense for them and
introduce yourself, greet and honor them and that’s all. See how that feels and
then proceed. Of course, we all know that sometimes those deities that we are
particularly drawn too, have already PICKED us, or at least, they want to teach
us or communicate something important to our lives.
DD: And never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly!
I would say consider what you have to deal with that is negative in your
life…and don’t say there ISN’T anything! One of the best things our high
priestess Stephania Ebony taught me is to let Set fight some of my battles for
me. Another thing I would suggest is to do the rituals int the book that deal
with catharsis and with improving your
self-esteem and self-image, such as those suggested for Lucifer, Volos, and Dionysos.
TWPT: Have the two of you always had an integrated approach to
the dark/light areas of your lives or was it something you had to learn over
time?
LN: I suppose having
all these darned planets in Scorpio made is hard for me to be Sweet Polly
Pure-bread. Certainly, I've always been a little witchy and aware of the darker
and harsher sides of life. I have never considered myself a practitioner of the
'"black arts", however. I guess I have always tried to see both sides
of any issue and tried to move beyond the limits of duality. My hardwiring must
have dual pathways, or something.
DD: I’m an Aquarius with Cancer rising, which makes me a bit
like Mr. Spock…when he’s in heat, that is, LOL! I’ve always liked the “dark
side,” in fact, I’m a horror writer! But in practice I’d say that I love the
spooky trappings of the darker arts, but I don’t do negative things such as
cursing. I’m a very ethical person, ethical to a fault, perhaps, and the book
supposes that the reader is that kind of person as well.
TWPT: Are the two of you satisfied with the final results of
your book The Dark Archetype? What kind
of reader/community feedback have you received since this book was released?
LN: We were on a tight schedule, so at times it was harrowing.
It was both great fun and hard work, but I am so glad that my co-writer
"made me do it"! I am pleased with the results for a first effort and
hope to continue to write more about dark archetypes in future. Feedback has
been wonderful and gratifying. For the most part readers have warmly embraced
what we have done and enjoy our often tongue-in-cheek and casual writing style.
The fact is that people want to know about these archetypes. They want to learn
and grow in their spirituality. We have only received one strongly worded
letter to date to counter the many positive ones! Of course we realize that our
take on the deities would not please everyone, as they are specific to us and
our own experiences (and the sources we used.) In a book this size it is
impossible to talk about every aspect and expression of the archetype in
question. We wanted to include so much more, but we were forced to pick and
choose. I understand that some readers have deeply personal relationships with
these entities that may be quite different than my own and what has been
presented in myth, and I respect their feelings. As they say, however, you
can't please all of the people all of the time.
DD: Well, Lori may have only received one “strongly worded
letter,” but I was soundly denounced by some guy who wanted to date me…until he
read the book! However, we’ve had an incredible amount of positive feedback.
I’m very grateful, for that means the book was interpreted in the way it was
intended to be. I’m also very grateful that people are enjoying the sense of
humor we bring to the subject and the breezy, conversational tone of our prose.
And as for those archetypes we didn’t get to include this time…watch for Part
Deux of The Dark Archetype, hopefully coming down the pike in the near future!
TWPT:
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to
TWPT and I wish both of you much success with the
Dark Archetype and your future efforts together
or as individual authors.
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